Monday, December 12, 2011

Top 10 List of Unusual Mormon Beliefs and Practices

Obviously, every religion can seem strange to those outside its doors.  And we often take our own strange beliefs for granted, normalized as they are to us by familiarity.  Yet when traditional Christians encounter Mormonism, there can be a rather shocking reaction to how different some of their beliefs and practices are.  (Obviously, it is also true that Mormons and non-Mormon Christians share many Christian beliefs and practices, given that we share a reverence for and reliance upon the Bible.)

Here's my Top 10 List of unusual Mormon beliefs and practices.

# 10:  Faithful Mormon adults are expected to wear a special 'temple garment' under their clothes at all times. These sacred underwear are thought to provide protection from evil and are a sign of Mormon covenant fidelity and faithfulness.

# 9:  Mormons revere the Christian Bible, but they have added to it three other scriptures of equal value: the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price.  Many of their most unusual doctrines and practices come from these other scriptures. In addition, the Mormon President--as the 'Prophet, Seer, and Revelator'--can add new revelations/scripture anytime he feels so inspired (although these days that rarely happens).

# 8:  The sacred Book of Mormon is alleged to have been found on ancient golden plates buried in a hill in upstate New York, just outside of Rochester. Furthermore, Mormons teach that these plates were translated from their original 'reformed Egyptian' language into English solely by the uneducated, 24-year old Joseph Smith.  He did this supposedly by looking into a hat, where his magic 'peep stone' was sitting. The English words appeared miraculously in the stone.

# 7:  Mormons believe that the American Indians are descendants of ancient Jews, who migrated to America (the new Promised Land) from Israel long before the birth of Christ.  The Book of Mormon teaches that these Jews crossed the Atlantic Ocean in a large, Ark-like ship.

# 6:  Joseph Smith taught--and thus Mormons believe--that the original Garden of Eden was located, not in the Middle East, but in Missouri.

# 5:  The Book of Mormon teaches that Jesus appeared after his resurrection to the Indians (ie. Jews) in America, and that Jesus' coming millennial kingdom and New Jerusalem will also be in America (again, probably in Missouri).  This shows the special place that America (and Missouri) has in Mormon theology.

Washington D.C. Mormon Temple
# 4:  One of Mormonism's biggest objectives is to build Mormon Temples all around the world.  Temples are used for the most sacred Mormon rituals, such as baptism for the dead, Mormon weddings, and the Endowment Ceremony.  Mormons believe that deceased non-Mormons can be given the opportunity to become Mormons through the vicarious baptism of living Mormons in their Temples.  This is one of the biggest motivations for the extensive Mormon investment in family genealogy: to find dead family members and have them baptized posthumously for their salvation.

# 3:  The Mormon Endowment Ceremony, conducted in the Temples, has long been controversial for its connection to Masonic traditions.  Before it was eliminated in the late 1980s, the Endowment Ceremony contained a Masonic-like ritual in which a vow was taken, with appropriate motions, that the vow-taker would be subject to having their throat slit and their intestines disemboweled if they ever revealed the contents of the ceremony.

'The Tree of Life' by Steven Loyd Neal, M.D.
# 2: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (LDS), the largest Mormon church, teaches that God the Father has a physical body and that there is a Heavenly Mother, who also has a physical body.  Together, our Heavenly Father and Mother produce 'spirit children', who are then incarnated into physical bodies (us).  This would seem to imply 'heavenly sex', and indeed this is supported by a statement by the second President of the Mormon Church, Brigham Young: "[God] created man, as we create our children; for there is no other process of creation in heaven, on the earth, in the earth, or under the earth, or in all the eternities, that is, that were, or that ever will be."

And finally, # 1:    The good news is that marriage in a Mormon Temple guarantees that you will be married for eternity in the celestial kingdom (and possibly, for you men, with many wives, as had the 19th century Mormon polygamists).  And like God the Father and Mother, Mormons will continue to have heavenly--and I do mean heavenly--sexual relations for eternity, producing innumerable 'spirit children' that will populate the unique planet of their father and mother, who have become gods themselves.  (All this has led some to charge Mormonism with effectively being polytheistic in their theology.)

But the bad news is that all non-Mormons will only be non-sexual spiritual beings in the lower levels of heaven.  Better give that some thought before deciding not to become a Mormon (though being an angel is still a lot better than burning in hell!).

[You can see all my posts on Mormonism here.]

62 comments:

  1. Holy theology, Batman!! Being a Mormon must require a LOT of FAITH, because there are so many contradictory rules. And they have to square their beliefs with Christian rules too.

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    1. Yeah, but what's up with those underwear? How can Mormon underwear keep you from evil?? My goodness...think about it - it's just a piece of fabric! If wearing fancy undies were that important, I think God would have made that very clear in His Word...but!?!? Wow...gives my head a shake!!

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    2. Think about it would the Mormon temple garments keep the wearer from committing sin by reminding them to chose the right, ,Ive known people tie a piece of string around a finger to remind them of something ,the garments are a lot bigger than apiece of string ,so should be more efficient acting as a reminder of how one should behave, just a thought.

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    3. Tony, I personally don't have a problem with Mormons wearing sacred underwear if they want to. People use all kinds of 'talismans'--which is what function that is serving--sacred objects for purpose of supernatural protection and blessing. It's just so unusual for most Christians, that it captures their attention.

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  2. The problem is whether the leaders of that church believe this. Or maybe in that church belief is not the issue? Some would choose that religion for its moral guidance, accept its moral principles and consider that the stories are supporting elements necessary to engage illiterate minds. However, those stories are almost surrealistic with that "white stovepipe hat" and "the angel Moroni" and the seer goggles.

    It sounds like a parody of a religion made by an impious joker.

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  3. There is a typo in #8... It says "New Year" it should say "New York"

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    1. These crazies don't know whether it is New York or New year half the time to be fair.

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    2. Shut up. You don't even know what you're talking about all the time to be fair. Why don't you go research. Not online but to the actual church, before you post stupid comments.

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    3. YOU SHUT UP!!, AND GO LOOK UP ALL OF THE INCONSTANT STUFF WITH THIS RELIGION. THAT'S THE PROBLEM WITH RELIGION. RELIGIONS ARE ALL FOUNDED BY A HUMAN LEADER WHO CREATES A god & A THEOLOGY THAT HAPPENS TO AGREE WITH EVERYTHING HE MAKES UP. TRUE CHRISTIANITY WAS FOUNDED BY GOD'S WORD - THE WORD WHO IS THE SAME YESTERDAY,TODAY & FOREVER. THE BIBLE IS MOSTLY A TRUE DOCUMENTATION OF HISTORY.

      BE READY
      JESUS IS COMING SOONER THAN YOU THINK!!!

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    4. lol you cannot be serious^
      you were correct when you said "religions are all founded by a human leader who creates a god & a theology that happens to agree with everything he makes up"
      but then: "oh no.. dont be silly of course im not including MY religion.. that ones totally true!"

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    5. Why argue about religion as that's never been the answer. Religion just divides people; relationship with Jesus is the answer...not A religion! Wow, who's telling who to shut up? Totally rude, just sayin'.

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  4. Yes, all sounds patently absurd but all can any religions stand up to critical scrutiny? Adam, Eve and the talking snake sound pretty far fetched to me as well.

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  5. All religion is "patently absurd"

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    1. I agree 100 percent it only serves as a fear tactic for control and furthermore it has surpressed our advance as a species

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    2. I agree....and that's why we need Jesus. A big difference between religion and a 'relationship' with Jesus!

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  6. Might want to fix the type in your Blog. I am assuming you meant upstate "New York" not upstate "New Year". Otherwise strange and quirky Blog entry.

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  7. You all realize Mit Romney is Mormon, do we really want this guy as our president?

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    1. Religion doesn't matter when electing a peesident. It's not like he's going to make everyone convert. You should vote for the person who you agree with politically

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    2. I didn't agree with him politically either. All he cared about was the rich people and how to take care of them. The poor and elderly don't matter to him. I knew there was something nutty about that guy, now I know what it was.

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    3. Many of you fail to notice that RELIGION has everything to do with politics, society, everyday life. Think about it. Countries and nations fight over poverty and wealth, religion, justice and unjustice. It all goes back to hundreds of years ago. Religion is different than God/Jesus alone, but it certainly has effect on all that goes on, on Earth.

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    4. Of course what could be better bring him on , a very successful business man ,family man, politician ,look at him an his history who better could the American people chose , an a Christian (Mormons are Christians they are follower's of Christs teachings why split hairs)

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    5. I am very dubious about the thought of a devout Mormon as President. Mormonism has never really disavowed its political aims that it had from the very beginning through both the 'reigns' of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young: namely, established a this-worldly, political Kingdom of God, with the Latter Day Saints, as sovereigns and leaders, while 'Gentiles' are relegated to lesser roles, if not worse. This may sound crazy, of course, but this has always been a integral part of Mormon belief, so why should I think it has changed?

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    6. hi Carl I've been looking at anti Mormon sites on line, if this is what people have been reading I understand there views although I don't agree with them, lots of the sites are just using this sort of misinformation to inflame opinion an increase clicks on there site , its an easy target .a great deal is misrepresented , what religion 100/150 years ago put under the microscope today would look Good, I was given all the information an literature and I had accesses to 600 books about the Mormons on CD when I joined the church. , what about the church today! and no one seems to appreciate we are led by men an women who have human fragility ,we look at them an judge , we have access to the internet and a massive amount of info , I'm a Brit in the UK . I've read 100 years ago these places in USA had no law an were ruled by the Gun ,
      at least there's an exchange of information on your site , and in comparison its more civilized .your mention of Gentiles has reminded me were adopted into Zion I had forgotten that , must be old age the American government prevented Mormons taking political office for a very long time so its still new to us lol
      I agree with your comment except Gentiles wouldn't be
      relegated in the manner you suggest, today most Mormons probably aren't even really aware day to day of the Zion/Gentile
      thing.I've never thought of it in terms of them an us , I can see that many of you do ,how strange

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  8. Romney's Religion doesn't bother me as much as the fact that he is missing a spine and changes his positions on the issues that are important to us it seems almost every week. The guy will say anything to get elected and that scares me!

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  9. For me the most bizarre belief from the bible is the story about how the angels, you know like in heaven, got so horny that they came to earth and materialized as human males for the sole purpose of having sex with human females. And not one of them was curious enough to experience life and sex as a human female? So along with their materialized bodies they also materialized human sperm along with it's accompanied dna. But as we all know dna is inherited from our parents and the angels had none. So the angels impregnated human females with sperm containing angle dna? And these people really believe that happened. And I guess the Morons, I'm sorry I mean Mormons also believe that ridiculous nonsense. Also, weren't any of the angles curious about just exploring the planet? If they have the power to materialize as other life forms why not a bird, or fish? Why not materialize as both male and female and have sex with themselves? That would have to be the best. Hot angle sex? Yeah baby!

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  10. You can denounce all you want but until you pray and ask heavenly father yourself you can't say know the truth I did that and he should me the truth heavenly father believes in you even if you don't in him I'm a Mormon and thank heavenly father for all his blessings good and bad!

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  11. There's such a thing as a bad blessing? I was LDS and I recently found that the church really is a brainwashing production that threatens salvation against not paying tithes to keep the church going... There are several things that I could go on to say, but I don't like to bad mouth any religion or group of people. Im sorry that you can't see what the church does, but I do, so listen to me when I ask you to take a step back and analyze what is happening in the church. If the government were to start a program that did the same thing that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints does, they would get shut down in a heartbeat. But since yet claim to be religious, they get away with it.

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  12. Dont't post what you do not know. The church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is true and pure and should not be corrupted by the enticements of man.

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  13. So I assume you are willing to have your throat slit and be publicly disemboweled if you ever leaked the mysterious rituals of the endowment ceremonies? Or will you be too busy having eternal sex with Jos. Smith---he of the many wives is better, and gets you to a "better" heaven Jos. Smith---to worry about that?

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  14. People. Do not waste your time talking about the "Cat with the Hat"

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  15. So, where is that sky daddy of yours, and what does he actually do, ever? Just want to say hi and tell him he's a tosser...

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  16. LOL!!! That is just the top 10, let's see the rest of the top 100, this cult is clearly run and founded by insane pathological liars, anyone with an IQ over 60 should be able to see that it is not only absurd, but ludicrous. If some god wants us all to know something, it makes no sense at all to tell some punk kid in the middle of nowhere, why not just tell us all at once in a great booming voice (or use twitter? So Justin Beber has more power to communicate with mankind than your god?? Very sad…. ;) Or perhaps your god could make a book appear in everyone on earth’s hands in their own language. (Also, is god incapable of writing a book himself? Why the need to ask some kid to translate? Can create the universe, but publishing is beyond his ability?)

    It is sheer stupidity that they would even tell anyone that story, all religion is a manmade ignorance breeding illusion, this one doubly so. There is more reason to believe in the tooth fairy, unicorns and Bigfoot than anything these buffoons believe.

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    1. No amount of Malicious fabrications can change the fact that the church is the Restored Church of our heavenly father.

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    2. Yes, the church of Jesus Christ...not necessarily the mormon church...or any denomination for that matter.

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  17. Being a lifelong member of the LDS church I can tell you if you want to know what a Mormon believes ask a Mormon. This article is full of ignorance. If I want to know what a Baptist believes, or a Catholic, I ask them. What is so hard about getting correct information about Mormons? lds.org is a good place to start.

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  18. I am a Mormon and I just want to say that most all of this is incorrect and bias! We are Christians and we believe in the bible as long as it is translated correctly and we also belive in the book of Mormon which is another testament of Jesus Christ. If you want real answers, try going to lds.org or mormon.org . I really hope this can be cleared up. You may think that our religion is crazy, but we have faith that it is true.

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  19. So Smith translated the plates from reformed Egyptian. The jews enemy.
    It would be like writing the history of the United States in reformed Russian.

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    1. when Joseph son of Abram father of the Jews was in Egypt he rose to a very high ranking position in what you could call the Egyptian ruling order to the point he brought all his family there with him an the Jews at that time were highly respect an treated so well the multiplied greatly perhaps that's why the plates were written in reformed Egyptian

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  20. Its really too bad that this site is so wrong on some counts. If you would take the time to read one of the most comprehensive accounts of Mormanism available called " By the Hand of Morman" by Terryl L. Givens one might actually get a more balanced picture of the history and story of how this new American religion came to be and exists today. There appear to be some glaring errors in the above account. Too many to even bother with here. Read the book and don't take this account as any kind of Truth until you decide for yourself. The book is a very well done balance of research. This site isn't.

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  21. Many errors here. For example, #3 is backwards: I participated in the endowment ceremony many times before it was shortened in 1990. There was no mention of any penalties for revealing the contents of the ceremony. Contrariwise, it did include a warning of what could happen to someone who refused to reveal it, but nobody would suggest that the Church would punish anyone for maintaining its privacy.

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  22. To me, most religions hide something, and I find the Mormons to be the worst ones. If I had such a wonderful religion, I would want to share it and not try to hide anything. Hiding something to me is quite fishy. Most christians want to share what they've found...'everything', or at least I did! It was like walking from a dark room into one that's lit up. I was so excited to share my new-found life with everyone I came into contact with. I'm an ex-Catholic and when the Lord pulled me out of that religion, I vowed that I would never carry another denominational title again, and I haven't. I promote Jesus and the Truth of His Word! I never promote any religion, no religious beliefs..nothing like that at all. Jesus IS the Way, the Truth and the Life and no man comes to the Father but by Him...so why try to promote a 'religion' when HE is the way? Religion has always divided. A relationship with Jesus is much different! Even in the Bible, you'll see how Jesus felt about the religious...He called them vipers! They walked around in their holier than thou outfits, so obsessed with how they looked on the 'outside' when the 'inside' were full of dead man's bones...garbage! They were trying to impress man, not God; and the Bible teaches us to be God pleasers not man pleasers. Think about it! What has religion done for you? Religion gives us bondage; relationship gives us freedom! There is such a difference!!! So, I speak to all the 'religious' out there...be it Mormon, Catholic, Baptist, Pentecostal or what have you. When we stand before our Maker on that day, the title we bear will not impress God at all! He is more interested in the conditions of our hearts...where no man sees. God is the only One who sees the conditions of our hearts...the intentions, secrets, lies, any secret sin we think we're hiding from Him is not hidden! Also, on that day, He said that everything will be revealed. This world is just a temporary journey for all of us, so why get wrapped up in any religion and be stuck in bondage and laws; be set free and build a relationship with Jesus, our loving Father. What we choose on this earth determines our eternal destination...so choose today, whom will YOU serve? We cannot serve both God and the world! Follow the narrow road to eternal freedom; not easy, but it gives you SO much more than this world could ever offer anyone. Thank you and God bless!

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  23. I'm a Mormon convert , my conversion took place when i was approx 42 ,I was 12 months previously a hard drinking heavy smoking manual worker, a year after giving up smoking an drinking alcohol I came in contact with Mormon missionary's,to cut a long story short
    on my own i got down on my knees an asked the lord if the LDS church was the true church ,was Joseph Smith a prophet of God , was the book of Mormon a testimony of Jesus Christ ,well no answer so I went to bed at three in the morning i was given the knowledge all this was true , I typed it up on my word processor an went to sleep, when I awoke in the morning I thought I maybe dreamed it but there it all was in the printer ,
    Ive been widowed after 28 years , divorced after 6 years , an am happily married now 12 years , two out of three isn't bad, to some it is given to know , some can beleave on the words of others , I have great peace of mind which I'm grateful for,I've had three maybe four heart attacks the last 25 years and have been told by Dr's for the last 20 years I have only a few months to live ,I died over 20 years ago an was sent back , no I didn't want to come back ,I did have certain work to complete and I'm almost sure I have now completed it , I can tell you were here to overcome the trials an tribulations an temptations of this world an be nice and gentle an kind . sounds to easy doesn't it , beleave that Jesus Christ is the son of god love him an keep his commandments ,when we leave this world we get graded , higher the grade greater the glory for eternity .

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    1. Thank for your testimony. I'm glad that the Mormon faith has met your spiritual needs all these years. Blessings on you, Carl.

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    2. Thank you for your comment and blessings on you Carl,
      Old Joe once said "when I speak as the Prophet of God, the word of God issues forth from my mouth, when I speak as Joseph Smith the man I'm entitled to my opinions" an he wished we would remember it .must be hard being a Prophet and having the opinions of a man.

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    3. Tony, you sound like a very interesting fellow!

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  24. Thank you for the publicity, whether positive or negative. It will lead collect in its net honest seekers of truth and throw back the unbelieving. The Book of Mormon has never been disproven, nor can it ever be. It is physical proof that Heavenly Father is keeping his covenants with the House of Israel to gather them out before the earth is cleansed of the wicked.

    The day is coming when mockers and scorners will in terror have no place to hide. The Lord will call home his servants and preach His own sermon through the voice of thunderings, lightenings, plagues, earthquake, famine, and war. He will use the wicked to punish the wicked. And like every good parent, "Upon my house it shall begin, and from my house it shall go forth."

    Yes, the first ones to get it are the members of the Church who are not keeping the commandments.

    And as you mock, scorn, and comment in disbelief......stop, NOW. You are a child of God. He loves you and indeed does have a plan for your happiness. I love you brothers and sisters.

    All you need do is have the smallest desire to know, read the Book of Mormon with a sincere desire to know if it's true. I testify He will answer you in a way that is unmistakable. That's it. How hard can that be?

    You take the time to mock and scorn without a true knowledge of that which you are persecuting.

    So my challenge to you? Search, ponder, and pray. And may you find the missing piece of the puzzle that is in the depth of your soul. That knowing that something is missing that brings true and everlasting JOY. Come home!

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    1. As the author of this post, I don't believe that I have mocked or scorned the Mormon faith. Rather I have tried to share a few of the unusual aspects of the Latter-Day Saints history and doctrine. I have great admiration for the many devout believers, though I don't share their faith in the Prophet Joseph Smith, the Mormon Church, or the Book of Mormon.

      The more I have read, the more I realize that many Mormons are not familiar with many of these things, as much of the Mormon history and past beliefs have not been shared openly with the faithful. For example, few Mormons seem to realize the extent to which Prophet Joe engaged in plural marriage during his years in Nauvoo or how much he engaged in magical practices during his New York years, even in the translation of the Book of Magic. Despite decades of denial by the church leadership, this is now being openly admitted by honest historians like Richard Bushman, because the evidence is so strong.

      There is such turmoil in the Mormon church because of this past deception and suppression of their history, and the available of the truth on the internet. It seems to me that the only way to move forward constructively is an honest facing of the facts.

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    2. Hi Carl horses for courses ,having read your top ten list twice I must admit if I wasn't a Mormon id really join the Mormon church I don't find a fault with the list I find it all everyday positive an great, I do understand people find us very strange ,as most Mormons say "we are a strange people" God fearing honest an true, Joseph Smith once told Brigham Young "Brigham if you knew where the church was going you'd run away as fast as you could" Brigham replied "then don't tell me Joseph" Brigham went on to become the second Prophet of the Church. it was over a 100 years ago no computers TV radio internet most people couldn't read high death rate, he held them together formed a community in appalling conditions ,we should view the actions an words not by today's standards an political correctness but as it was then .When I was 15 it was part of my job to fetch paint for local council work from a central store there were three colors Cream ,Green ,an for want of a better word what ill now call Nigerian brown absolutely exceptable then correct naming of products, now 50 years later wrong an unacceptable ,we should look at things in context of the time they took place, I think your showing signs of mellowing love your blog

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    3. Thanks, Tony. People have sometime read the 'top ten list' as if they were meant to be critical, but I simply meant them as written to be descriptive. That is what Mormons have believed. Whether they still believe it, I'm not sure, because you all keep changing your doctrines and practices! LOL.

      I agree that 19th century Mormonism needs to be seen in its context. Nevertheless, the polygamy that your early leadership encouraged and defended for some 50 years (1840-1890) was contrary to Christian morality and, frankly, abusive to women, treating them as inferior to men. Plus, knowing many religious leaders and clergy as I do (35 years as a Methodist pastor, now retired), I'm am not unfamiliar with the sexual temptations that come with that office. And, personally, I think that Joseph Smith exploited the women (and their husbands) in his church to satisfy his sexual lusts. And then he tried to justify it with revelation D & C 132. I find that unacceptable. So, that's not exactly a criticism of Mormons today, who (for the most part) do not practice or teach the plural wife doctrine. But it remains a problematic part of your scripture (D & C 132).

      There are other problems I have with your church's history, but for me, Prophet Joe's sexuality promiscuity is enough to rule the whole thing out as a divine creation.

      One other thing about Prophet Joe's practice of plural marriage. Your church still hides that fact from its people, which I find deceptive. I watched the hour-long movie that the LDS church made a few years ago on the life of Joseph Smith, and there wasn't a mention of his plural marriages. Not a word. It was as if he had only one wife, Emma, and he was totally faithful to her.
      It looks to me as if the LDS Church still has some wrestling to do with Prophet Joe and his practice of polygamy.

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    4. Hi Carl We will have to agree to disagree on old Joe the first Prophet , I don't se polygamy as you paint it ,pioneer women no electric cleaners, washing machines ,everything done by hand, spinning weaving there own clothes growing there own food large family's probable losing half the children in childhood sickness an infirmity ,large portion of available men getting killed ,snake bite Indian wars accidents disease,sexual desire tends to die off a bit especial for women its so hard ,the first wife had to agree to any future wife, the husband had to prove he could support more family's, it wasn't a sexual free for all.women with children widowed they had to be supported it was heavy manual work just to survive ,family's wanted as many children as possibly so many died, they were the workers to hold family's together, the old age provision ,children were actually great wealth without which the community died ,I see a farmer coming home late at night tired hungry, he may have struggled to complete the days work, I see maybe four or five strong healthy Mormon Pioneer women ,I don't se him bullying or pushing them around rather I see him grateful for his meal an falling in line with the arrangements they have sorted between themselves for the night, that's where I am ,yes Joseph smith brought in polygamy, an without doubt Brigham Young embraced it an I was taught this from the very first I investigated the LDS church ,also yes the American Government threaten to imprison any Mormon Man in a Polygamous marriage plus it would confiscate all church property an monies ,the church bent in the wind and complied with the governments request , and it still exists today. I do agree Jesus tells us a man should have one wife an we learn an that's what the church teaches today ,look to the old Testament plural wives many concubines and don't we know of at least one Prophet who on meeting his daughter-in law on the road invited her in his tent an had carnal knowledge of her, I know Joseph Smith as Mormon, non smoking none
      drinking, healthy life style, he liked to wrestle visitors to his
      farm he'd be fairly fit, an no doubt more sexually capable than your average non Mormon ,I still don't see him fulfilling all that's attributed to him in that line,am his wife Emma was no push
      over, Brigham quoted Joseph as saying "I'd go to hell an back to fetch Emma if I had to" then Brigham added "he'll probably have to" I think Emma was being particularly trying at the time,
      Mormons don't hide these things we don't usually push them down peoples throats I Grant you some misguided folk skate around things they don't feel comfortable with, there's Millions of Mormons there is no doubt some except some teachings an not others , I tent to think some people pick what they want an reject a lot , I think its all wonderful such a mix it just rings true i see human nature in it all , God's intelligence is greater than all the other intelligences put together that's what we mean by there is only one God, God the father if he chose to elevate some of his children to such a degree that the rest would look on them as gods there would still be only one God none could attain God the fathers intelligence but to those lower down there would appear to be many gods. God the Father says I am a jealous God you shall have no other gods
      but me ,no point stressing the point if there were no other Gods.

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    5. I still think Joseph Smith was a sex addict, and in his addled mind at the end, justified it with 'revelation'. In any case, your missionaries--along with your LDS PR--don't tell the truth about these things. Be right up front in your proselytizing, that yes, Joe Smith had 35 wives in the last four years of his life, although he hid it from his church and the public. That's the truth. And yes, Joe Smith translated the Book of Mormon by looking at a magic stone in his hat. And yes, he had himself declared king and was running for President before he was killed, so that he could run the whole country like the Mormon Church.

      Then at least those folks who decide to convert know what they're getting into. I dislike deception and dishonesty more than anything else. When the LDS tells the truth about itself--openly and without embarrassment--then maybe I'll be more inclined to give it the benefit of the doubt.

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    6. Hi Carl
      being whats termed of the old school, an an old man,I remember being taught in the army by the army education Teachers, (Officers everyone bless them and the most competent Teachers I ever had),one in particular taught us ",I might not agree with everything you say but I would defend unto death your right to say it" (an old Joe said when I speak as a man I'm entitled to my opinion lol)at least you can say on your blog you had a Mormon who was not embarrassed an had his say, thank you for that Carl

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    7. Sure, Tony. Do you acknowledge or dispute the things I said above....that Joe Smith had many wives, that he translated the Book of Mormon using old fashioned magic, that he had himself declared King and tried to make himself theocratic leader of the US? And if you acknowledge it, why do you still accept him as an inspired Prophet who founded the only true Church? That's what I don't understand.

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    8. Hi Carl
      well as to what happened over 100 years ago he did inspire a lot of hatred among none Mormons so I take a lot of whats written with a pinch of salt he brought in polygamy so its logical he had more than one wife although as it was sealings in the temple I can say not all would be consummated but only Joseph an his ladies would know about that and it would be a private matter not talked about.as to the translating of the book of Mormon he says it was by the holy spirit/the spirit of intelligence using the Urim and Thumin , you yourself describe him as an uneducated farm boy , I have read the book of Mormon, an between you an me I was while in the Army classed by a Canadian physiologist as above average intelligence , I could not now let alone a 100 years ago write the book of Mormon having read it more than once, do you credit an uneducated farm boy 100 years ago capable of writing it?. I wouldn't have a problem with Joseph Smith being king of the USA ,our own queen comes from a strange linage an we do love her.There are three types of Mormon cradle Mormons, Spiritual Converts, an bless them social converts, When your a spiritual convert as I am, when the holy spirit touched my spirit an confirmed that Joseph Smith is a Prophet of God , that the Church of Jesus Christ is the church of God , that the book of Mormon testifies of Jesus Christ .nothing can ever alter that, its not based on evidence its not affected by hearsay it requires no further proof it gives one complete peace of mind , an no doubt ever arises, I understand how frustrating it must be to others , as frustrating as it must have been to the Romans putting Christians to death for not renouncing there faith.Spiritual converts could be put against a wall an shot we are unable to deny it.put it this way its like you refusing to breath because science proves oxygen is killing you. I bore my testimony to a good catholic man, his young lady was reciaving the last lesson the missionary give before inviting you to join the church he came 300 miles to sit in on it, I bore my testimony he was amazed he said theirs nothing like this in my church we gave him a Book Of Mormon an as he asked forwarded his address to the London Missionary in his area he had been touched by the Holy Spirit, his young lady on the other hand was completely unmoved declined to join the church saying she had much work to do to complete her doctorate .To some it is given to know ,some can beleave on the words of others.I was amazed everyone hadn't joined the Church touched by the spirit , I confess i would never have joined otherwise, the only thing I can say we have in the Bible the account of Paul on the road to Assisi he was hunting down Christians an having them put to death the Lord still chose to touch his spirit an use him to convert others . we have a strange an wonderus God to me unfathomably I would not question him or his actions or the people he uses,he has given us free agency we can chose to believe or not but we will be judged on that an placed in the appropriate Glory for eternity
      (some will chose not to accept any glory from God and there are many places for them to spend eternity ) as for me I cant wait to return, if i didn't beleave it was a sin to kill an that includes suicide I'd be long gone !

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    9. PS
      Carl, if you want to know pray to God with real intent ask him if these things are true. Joseph Smith ,The book of Mormon.and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints , ill pray to the Lord to touch your spirit to confirm it, you don't need the missionary you know more than most about Mormons anyway. to some it is given to know ,by my reckoning you've earnt it, I hope the Lord blesses you with what you need
      Tony

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    10. Pondering on things let me plat the devils advocate for a moment,look at Abraham finds a lady of what he believes easy virtue at the side of the road unknown to him its his daughterinlaw takes her to his tent an has carnal knowledge of her. his wife procures a young Egyptian servant/slave girl he she has a boy child by him later his wife is upset thinking the mother an child are laughing at her an her child so Abraham throws the mother of his child out into the desert with just a bag of food an bottle of water and leaves them unprotected.God then tells Abraham he will be blessed an his descendants will fill the earth.lets look to the knew testament Saul of Tarsus,aka Paul on the road to Damascus aka Paul the apostle , a man who hunted down men women an children for becoming Christians had them imprisoned, stoned an murdered then God chooses him to convert the Gentiles to Christianity ,ring any bells? could this be preparing our generation to reciave Joseph Smith who restores the true Church on the Earth today
      you did say he had 32 wives was it sealed in the temple to him an we are told not all consummated so they could advance in there perceived religious commitment he doesn't stand up to bad in comparison wouldn't you say and by my my ideals hes in goodly company ,

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    11. PS
      sorry Carl I forgot my old favorite Moses, an abandoned baby found an adopted by a princes brought up with full royal privileges, turns on his adopted people an family, seeing two overseers chastising a lazy work shy slave he murdered them ,God chooses him to lead his people from slavery , Moses then brings down on his adopted people plagues, pestilences,and has killed the first born of every family, bet they wished they didn't take that baby in ,at the end of his life God translates him an takes him to heaven, he doesn't even die.(I wonder if he was one of the spirits in human body I saw)
      Prophet Joseph Smith ,I'm just putting a bit of perspective on whats said I beleave the bible to be Gods word every thing in it has a purpose , a time and its place , God our heavenly Father gave us a clue he said ,"You will forgive everyone everything ,I will forgive whom I please", I think that means we shouldn't second guess God

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    12. Hi Carl
      still perusing your blog wow tons of info,I don't need to tell you any of this you already know ,I could call you a dry Mormon, you know an beleave much you just haven't took the step of being baptized ,whys that stubborn ? pride ,or you just cant trust your being told the truth, or to much conflicting info you cant sort the wheat from the chaff, last count theirs over 14 million Mormons an its still the fastest growing Church in the world. For me you know, it was so easy I knew nothing ,the Lord wanted me in ,I was in, what have you got to loose if were wrong an theirs nothing its still a great way of life! if were right the rewards are amazing an for eternity, its like flipping a two headed coin an calling heads .the SAS have a motto , HE WHO DARES WINS. Tony

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    13. You use the phrase 'God's Word' above....I will tell you that I don't accept anything Joe Smith wrote as God's Word. So that's probably the biggest difference between us, and why Mormons are not considered to be Christians-in-good-standing by many of us. You can't just relegate the Old and New Testament to 'second-class' status and basically replace it with Joe Smith's creations, and still be considered as part of the historic Christian Church. Or so I think, anyway.

      Far from being a 'dry Mormon', I think Joe Smith was a false Prophet, Brigham Young was a false Prophet and a brutal tyrant, and that nobody since them in a leadership role in Mormonism has been willing to tell the truth about its history. Until that happens, Mormonism will continue to be under siege.

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    14. I'll take that as a no then Carl ,doors always open, there's being a social convert should you change your mind , The Holy Bible is not placed second to anything the book of Mormon is complimentary to it and a further testemy to Jesus Christ , Didn't Methodists break away from the main stream church because they held different views ,they must have felt there was something wrong at the time,We as latterday Saints (Mormon's is a nickname others have labeld us with) have been told if whatever were told doesn't fit in with the teachings an ministry of Jesus Christ to ignore itmy reference to Dry Mormon was referring to your knowledge of IDS matters sorry you took it as an insult wasn't intended. each to his own Carl been an experience chatting bye

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  25. I've studied and checked out several churches and religions over the years. They all have faults if that's what you are looking for. But in general perspectives they all believe in God and Jesus christ. Do your own homework. Have an open mind and check them out. We all want to go to heaven. If you look at the beginning of most churches and religions. They all seem like a cult. They want you to believe their way.everyone else's is wrong. Well I believe that I will be with our heavenly cater and his son Jesus christ one day. That's all that matters. In Jesus name we pray....Amen

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